Helena Girod

The Muscogee (Creek) Nation

Historic and Cultural Preservation Department

Oral History Program

"A Twenty-First Century Pandemic in Indian Country:

The Resilience of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation Against Covid-19"

As Remembered by: Mrs. Helena Girod

Interview by: Ms. Midge Dellinger

Date: June 16, 2021

Transcription: The Audio Transcription Company

Edited by: Ms. Midge Dellinger

MIDGE DELLINGER: This is Midge Dellinger, oral historian for the Muscogee Nation. Today is June 16, 2021. And I am at my home in Tulsa, Oklahoma interviewing Muscogee citizen, Mrs. Helena Girod, who was also at her home in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. This interview is being performed remotely due to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. I am performing this interview on behalf of the Muscogee Nation Historic and Cultural Preservation Department for the oral history project titled "ATwenty-First Century Pandemic in Indian Country: The Resilience of the Muscogee Creek Nation Against COVID-19." Mrs. Girod, thank you so much for being here today and participating in this project. 00:01:00 I'm going to start by asking you some questions about your personal life and your background. And so, let's begin with, what is your tribal town and clan?

HELEN GIROD: (laughs) That's why we were practicing. My mom used to say it like Tulmochussee, but here's the name of it, and I don't exactly know where it's at but it's down south someplace, they all lived in Southern Oklahoma, not Anadarko, but that direction. So.

DELLINGER: And what is your clan?

GIROD: I'm Raccoon.

DELLINGER: Oh, okay. Very good. So, Mrs. Girod, where were born and where did you grow up?

GIROD: I was born in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. Let's see, we lived in Fame, that's where my dad was from, Eufaula, Muskogee, Okmulgee, but I was raised, really, in Wichita, Kansas. I went to school my whole life there. 00:02:00 And when I graduated, we moved back to Tulsa.

DELLINGER: And so, from what age to what age were you in Wichita?

GIROD: Probably like five or six till I was, I turned nineteen when I was in high school, when I graduated that year.

DELLINGER: What was the name of the school that you graduated from?

GIROD: Wichita High School South. There was four high schools in Wichita, but I was at South.

DELLINGER: Okay, very good. I'd like for you to talk a little bit about growing up in any of those places. I think I'd really like to know about your time, maybe like in Fame, or you said Eufaula, if you remember any of that. And then, definitely Wichita. And just talk a little bit about growing up and your family and your family life, your childhood, 00:03:00 just things like that.

GIROD: Well, I don't remember much about Fame because I was real little, but I do know from pictures, my dad had pigs. He raised pigs. And he said that we had a part wolf, part another dog, and it kept everybody at bay. But somebody poisoned it, and so, we lost it. Then, the next memory I remember is in Eufaula. My dad and mom had a laundry mat. My dad would deliver the clean clothes and everything back to some of the customers. And he said that he put me on the floor of the car because the car didn't want to keep going, he told me just, keep revving it a little bit, and he said, somebody came in, he said, "I couldn't figure out what was wrong with your car because it'd go up and stop, and up, and stop." He said, "I had to look in," and he said, "There's this little girl in here going, rrrr!" That was so funny. I remember that. (laughter) But just 00:04:00 little bits of memory because I was so young. Then, when we went to Muskogee, we stayed with my mom's parents. And I don't remember much about it except the back porch, my grandmother, Jessie Scott, she would shuck corn. She showed me how to shuck corn and snap beans, but they had--went blank--a cellar. But apparently, back then, they didn't have it sealed. So, every time it rained, you'd see her canned goods floating around in there. I went yuck! But they were south of Muskogee, but I don't know exactly where it was that, I just remember it was out away from Muskogee. And then, we moved to Okmulgee, because my dad went to school at A&M. He became a mechanic. Auto mechanic is what he became. And then we moved to Wichita and my dad got on at Boeing, 00:05:00 and started working there. And we started out living on Hillside, and then we moved up to top of the hill, then we moved to Clifton, then we moved to Fees. So we had four different houses in Wichita. But my dad would take us out when we lived over on Clifton--not, it was Fees. Close to the school used to be a place where they had the military, way back when they had apartments for all the military families and everything. Well, they were all gone and all it was roads. So, my dad made us a go-kart from our old swing-set, you know those teeter-totters we used to have? He made a go-kart and put a lawn mower engine on it, and got the wheels and everything, steering wheel, we had a ball out there just driving around because there's nobody out there. And then, he got us a little scooter, and he was talking to me I was riding along, and 00:06:00 I turned down real slow because he was walking slow. But then, when I turned it down too low, the throttle broke. And so, I was trying to stop it, but your hands get tired. And he'd almost get to me and I had to release them. He was just running like crazy. When he finally caught up with me, my mom said, "You need to put a switch on that so if anything happens, they can flip that switch to kill that motor." So, he did. But he was always coming up with different things--because we didn't have a lot of money and there's five of us kids. At the beginning, there was just me, and then, we had two more when we were in Okmulgee, and my little brother was born in Wichita.

DELLINGER: So, Mrs. Girod, can you share with us your parents' names and your siblings' names as well?

GIROD: Oh, sure. Siah and Lillie McIntosh. My mom was a Scott. And I have Joan, it's McIntosh Grider, now. Her husband's Allen. And they have 00:07:00 two children. And they have, I think, fourteen grandkids, but they're raising eight of their grandkids by their daughter. And I'm the oldest. I forgot, I am the oldest, and I have two children, and my two children are by my former husband. We were only married four years and then, I met Russ. Can I go ahead and tell you about him first?

DELLINGER: Sure.

GIROD: Okay. Well, Russ and I met at a singles Halloween party. And so, I went with a friend and her sister. Well, we worked together at Chief Freight Lines. And this girl's sister was the one that was single, and another girl that I worked with, we were both single. So, they said, "Come with us, let's go." I said, "Okay." So, we took off. And so, the guys that were in charge, they said, "We want you women, when the music stops, go get a different guy on the floor, that way we'll keep everybody moving." So, we were 00:08:00 out there dancing, the music stops, and I asked somebody. And Russ had come in, he was on the far wall. And so, I thought, "Well, I'll just go ask him." So, first thing I did, though, because he had a lady that was like a vampire, and she was kissing everybody on their neck, bright red lipstick. I found out because he was very shy. First thing he said was, "Do I have lipstick on my neck?" I said, "No." But I asked him to dance and he just kind of stayed there with us. And I never gave out my phone number because I had my two little ones. I always gave the zoo's number. But I don't know why I gave him my number, but I did. And he started calling me. And then we started going out. But he was so different from everybody else. Whenever we were talking and he said, "You could have been my babysitter," I said, "I know," because he was eight years younger. Here's a picture of him. See? Can you see?

DELLINGER: Hold it up just a little bit higher.

GIROD: How is that?

DELLINGER: Oh, 00:09:00 yeah, that's a really good picture. Thank you for sharing.

GIROD: That's when we were in Italy. And so, we went together for seven years before we finally decided to get married because I just didn't want to get married again. I didn't want to have a failed divorce. I had one already. And he had never been married, so we finally were just like, "Go ahead and get married," and we were married for thirty-five years. We've known each other forty-two years. And he adopted the two kids two years after we got married, so the kids have his name. Let's see, what else can I tell you? He was a hard worker. He worked for the railroad. And no matter when or how we planned things, the railroad always messed things up. Because he'd come in that morning and think, "Oh, good, you'll be able to go tonight." No, the railroad calls him. But he was a wonderful man.

DELLINGER: What was his position with the railroad?

GIROD: When 00:10:00 he first started, he was on the railroad gang, fixing the ties and all those railroad ties and all those things on the rail. And then, he became, what was it, a brakeman. And then, he became a conductor. And he could have gone up to be an engineer, but he said he did not want the headache of being an engineer. So, he just stayed there. And how he retired. He was at the railroad for thirty, thirty-five years, I think. But he retired when he was sixty years old.

DELLINGER: And which railroad line did he work for?

GIROD: Well, it started out as Frisco, and then it ended up Burlington Northern Santa Fe. BNS. And that's where our son works, too. He's a yard master.

DELLINGER: Wow. So, did he work out of the railroad yard in West Tulsa?

GIROD: He did. For a long time, he went south. 00:11:00 He'd go down to Tishomingo and then he'd stay at--I can't remember, sometimes Madill, Tishomingo, but they'd put him up in a hotel because you can only go for so long. And they'd keep him there until they'd get another train and bring him back. And then, he might be like a day or two, or part of a day, depending on how the trains were running. Then he'd go out. And then, sometimes he went to Springfield from Tulsa. And then, the last year he was working, he wanted to make sure he could get the maximum amount from the railroad money, retirement, so he drove to Enid. When he'd get a call he had to immediately take off because you only had an hour or something to get to your location. So, he went to Enid and went to Springfield and back. He could make more money that way than going south. So, that's what he did. He wanted to make sure that we were well taken care of. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Right. That sounds like such an interesting life and career. I didn't realize that that 00:12:00 was the work that he had done prior to retirement. How long might he be gone at a time? What's the longest that he would have been gone?

GIROD: Well, sometimes he'd be gone two or three days, and then, other times he might be gone two days. But if they had a bridge out or something, then he was gone for a good while. But he travelled down from Tulsa down to Okmulgee and kept going that direction. So, one time I was in Okmulgee, I went to a meeting or something, and they happened to be in town, and so, they said, "Can you bring us something to eat?" And they were parked way out in the boonies, somewhere. So, I had to find my way out there and run the food up to them. But they just weren't near a place to eat. But he usually always took him food to eat. And then, they had places on the train where they could heat stuff up, you'd just didn't let sit and let it stay for a while. You didn't 00:13:00 want to leave it too long, or it'd start a fire. But he said sometimes the engineer would be sitting there eating a sandwich and he said, "I had a four-course meal sitting out here," because I fixed a salad, and meat, and veggies, and stuff like that, and a dessert. But he always had lots of food. But when he retired, he said, "I never want to have another sandwich," because peanut butter and jelly sandwich, he had to eat a lot of those because in the middle of the night, food just isn't good.

DELLINGER: That's a very interesting and unique career to have and life to have. So, thank you for sharing that. Now, I know, after he retired, and I was going to ask you about this, he started a business.

GIROD: Oh, he'd been doing businesses all along. One of the businesses he did, I'm not even sure what it is, a component. I had to get out there and help solder. I never had soldered. So, I had to solder these things. And then, 00:14:00 another thing we had was the Talk-Back Pagers. And it was the size of a business card. So, when you fold a business card, it'd go like this, but it'll be about that size. But that's before the cell phones came out. He had Talk-Back Pagers. And they went fast. And we had to monitor them and everything. What else did he have after that? Oh, way before that, he had Round-The-World Gifts, where he had all kinds of different things and we've got quite a bit upstairs, like those gold, copper etching with animals into and everything. We have those. But the biggest seller of that, it was called a bullpen, and it was just a pile of manure that was dried and shellacked, and they'd put a pin on it. But everybody got that. They thought it was so funny. Sold 00:15:00 so many of those. But he finally gave that up because he didn't think he was making enough. But later on, somebody else picked up that name and went with it. I said, "You should have stayed with it," because when you first start it, it is kind of hard, but we were getting going and everything. And then, he did Cinema Review. That was a lot of work. But we got to go to see every single movie. And when we first started, I had to go and get the content of movies. And one of the first movies I did was Washington. It was mainly Black actors, very colorful words, so I'm sitting here counting the F-words, G-ds, and M-Fs, and I told him, "I spent so much time marking I couldn't really watch the movie because I was marking all this down." He said, "After thirty, you didn't have to mark it," cause it's like three hundred some-odd, very bad. But then, he hired somebody in California to do all of the content for us, 00:16:00 so we had like violence, sex, nudity, profanity, concerns for parents, because sometimes it had rape scenes and you didn't want to take children to it. But he started it because our little ones would go to a movie that's supposed to be geared for them, and when we'd get them in there, it was not.

So, he said, "We've got to change this." And when we first started, the Rs weren't nearly as bad as they are now. The Rs would have been like an XXX, or something like that. But it has changed so much. Oh my gosh. But then, after that, he started our shelter business, ACE Tornado Shelters. And those go under your bed. And so, he asked me to keep that going until I can sell it, and then, I won't have to do anymore, which was so strange because he thought he was making up for younger families 00:17:00 so they can get their kids underneath there and save them. But they don't think about things like that. But the seniors, they do. And they said that some of them, they couldn't go down the steps anymore, so they said, "Well, we can get down on our knees and slide in there and go to sleep." They said, "We may not get out very fast, but we can get down." I said, "That's the way I am. I can get down, but I'm slow getting out because of my knees." (laughs)

DELLINGER: Right. Will you explain exactly what this shelter is that he created?

GIROD: You get rid of your box springs, you get rid of the frame, and it's a nineteen-inch tall, it's metal, if you have a king-size, it's three pieces. You have--anyway, a big piece, and then you have a fifteen-inch piece, and another one. But they're all bolted together. There's nothing that's welded. He made it module so you could get in and out of your house really easy, because most 00:18:00 of the time--when he was looking, he could not find anything that would fit us because our garage is full, and my backyard, he fixed it from me, and so, I don't want it an ugly thing out there. So, I was a real light sleeper and every time he bought box springs, they'd squeaked. He'd get out of the bed and I'd wake up and couldn't go back to sleep. So, he built us a platform. At that time, he said, "Then I noticed how much room we could have underneath the bed with just the platform." So, then, that's when he got with a structural engineer and told him what he was wanting to do and designed it, and the structural engineer helped him design it so that it would be good and sturdy. And we went to Texas and had it tested the first time, but the door wasn't sturdy enough.

So, go back and they added more hardware and got a different grade of metal for the door. And so, when we took it back down there and it passed that time. But whenever you're sleeping, a lot of times, the storms 00:19:00 will happen when you're in bed. So, if you hear that--well, half the time, you don't hear the siren going, anyway. But if your roof's being raised, opening that door and closing that door, but I've told a lot of--because here in Oklahoma, it's real iffy, you don't know whether it's going to come or not. You don't want to sit up the whole night wondering what's going to come. I said, "Open your door, put your pillow and your blanket here, get way in there so that if the tornado comes, you can just roll in, pull it, and close it." Because all you have to do is pull the door and just latch it. But you can also use it as a safe room, if somebody breaks into your house. It cannot be opened from the outside. So, parents with kids, you need to put a little pin or something in that hole, so then when kids get in there, they can't lock themselves in, because you'd have to get a blowtorch to open that thing up. But it was tested, and we passed with flying colors, no problem. But a lot of people look at it, because when you're standing, it looks like it's really low. But when you get down, 00:20:00 it sits like here to me when I'm sitting next to the floor, because the first show we went to, nobody was stopping.

So, I thought, "Okay." So, I sat down on the floor, and then people started coming and looking. And so, I demo'ed how to get in and out and close the door. I'd go in and close the door, I'd come out, here's all these people standing around. So, I'd tell them all about it. And then, if they're really, really interested, I'd tell them as much as I knew. And then I'd say, "Okay, go over here to my husband. He can tell you all the detailed information," because I didn't know. A lot of them asked what gauge is all this stuff. And if they came over and I couldn't get them to move, I'd roll in there to the other side and talk to people on that side. But we did really well the first year we did this. And then, Channel 6 come out before he got the second shelter fixed, when he was still working on it and they did a little show on him and everything. But when they showed my face, they went right here in my face. 00:21:00 I thought, "Oh my gosh." (laughter) He worked really hard on that. And this is our fourth year with selling the shelters. But right now, I've kind of put it on hold because with the pandemic, everything has gotten so, so high. And it's supposed to be affordable, essential, convenient. It's not affordable right now. So, I told the manufacturers, I said, "We're just not going to order right now. When it goes down, I'll place another order, but I'm not going to order. At this price, it's way too much for people." So, it's manufactured here in town. Our nuts and bolts are ordered here in town. We try to keep everything local, so that way people say, "Well, where is it built?" Well, the pieces are made on the other side town, West Tulsa, we have a company, and then the doors, and some of the other pieces I can put together. So, our grandson was supposed to help me but he bailed on me. 00:22:00 (laughs) So, I do it now. We had one that, they wanted to have it powder-coated. It was in the van. So, I put the whole shelter, the little pieces I had to do, together in that van. I looked like a contortionist in there doing all that. But I got it done.

DELLINGER: Wow. Good for you. You already answered one of the questions I was going to ask you because I knew that you had this business, and I was going to ask you how the pandemic had impacted the business and all of us right now are going through this experience of everything being so expensive, and especially building supplies, right now. And so, I was wondering how that was impacting your business. So, I'm sorry to hear that you've had to put things on hold for right now. 00:23:00

GIROD: It more than doubled.

DELLINGER: Yes. Hopefully you'll be able to, maybe by the end of the year, at least, get the ball rolling again with your business. So, is there anything else that you'd like to share about Russ?

GIROD: Well, he never would sit around. He was always busy, busy. He was an IT person. So, anytime I had problems, I'd say, "Russ, my computer's not working." So, he'd have to come in and fix it. I relied on him so much for that. He was a handyman, too. He did our whole backyard. He fixed it up, gave me a koi pond, even fixed me a gazebo back there. You'll have to come over some time and see. But he cooked outside. And he learned to cook. After he retired, whoever got the hungriest first, or whoever got through 00:24:00 first with whatever we were doing, would come down and cook. He said, "Are we fasting today?" I said, "Well, I'm trying to get this thing finished," because sometimes when you're doing paper things, it's kind of hard to stop mid gear. So, I said, "Let me finish this up and I'll go down and fix us something." And then, sometimes, he'd say, "Well, I'm through, I'll just go fix us something." I'd say, "Okay." (laughter) But he was a good partner. He helped do the laundry, help do the dishes and everything. We just did everything together. And sometimes when we're outside working on things, we'd be just talking back and forth, trying to figure out how to do something, and we'd finally figure it out and I told them, "Well, between the two of us, we have one great big brain," because we could really work together. (laughs)

DELLINGER: That's good. That's a great partner to have. I tell you what, I want to come back here in a little bit to Russ, but what I'd like to do is go back and you talked a little bit about your dad, 00:25:00 and I'd like for you to talk a little bit about your mom, and just tell us a little bit about her and what she did, if she worked in the home or if she worked outside of the home.

GIROD: Well, when they were at Eufaula, she worked in the laundry mat with my dad. And then, when we went to Wichita, she didn't work away from the home, she took care of all of us kids. She had a of couple part-time jobs she did off and on, but most of the time, she stayed home with us. She didn't learn to drive till after my dad had appendicitis, and then, she had to learn. But she was very blunt on what she would tell you. And she was outspoken. So, when she said something, you better do it. (laughter) When 00:26:00 we were coming back from--we had gone down to see our grandparents in Artussee, and we're coming back, and Dad's brother, Chilly was with us, and he started having pains and he couldn't drive. Chilly couldn't drive, either. And I told them I should have driven, because Dad had already showed me how to drive, because I was real little when he started teaching me, you've got one on the floor, one on the stick, but I'd have to peek up like this and drive because I was too short. But when we got back home, my dad said, "What are they going to do to me when I get to the hospital?" And my mom was just saying, "They're going to cut you open." It's the appendix, you know? "They're going to cut you open."

But after that, she had to learn how to drive. So, then, she was driving us around. But she loved gardening. She loved getting out in the yard. She bought her house here in Tulsa. She'd always be out there when I'd call to check on her. She'd be on the front porch having 00:27:00 her coffee by eight because she'd get up early. My dad would still be in bed sleeping. But he had lost his leg. He used to smoke years ago, and so, his arteries were all clogged and everything from the smoke and nicotine. So, he lost just below his knee.

DELLINGER: Okay, so something just popped into my head. When you all came back from Wichita, you said you were nineteen. When the family came back to Oklahoma, where did you move to?

GIROD: Well, I-244 there at Harvard. There used to be houses sitting on the south side. Well, Dad just rented one of those houses, so Mom could pick a house. But it was going to be moved and he had told the city that we're just going to stay there temporary while we're looking for houses. He didn't want to go and find a house. And so, 00:28:00 they did find a house, and it was there on Thirty--no, on Clifton, is where we went. It's just north of Admiral, so they were out of Creek territory and they didn't know it. So, anyway. But they lived there in the house they were in until they both passed away. And then a nephew bought it. So, the house is still in the family. But they lived there. And once we moved there, because my dad--they never did buy a house until then because it was always rented, we used to play volleyball at the other place, everybody would get out and play volleyball. That was so fun. We got there, "No, you'll hurt my grass." (laughs) So, our volleyball playing had to quit.

DELLINGER: Can't be trampling the grass.

GIROD: But anyway.

DELLINGER: Was that your mom or your dad saying that?

GIROD: My dad. 00:29:00 It was his yard. He didn't want anybody to mess up his yard. It just has to be perfect. And when he lost his leg, when he'd try to mow, oh my gosh, "No, you do it this way, do this," "Okay."

DELLINGER: Yeah, that piece of land was very important to him. Right. Okay. So, when we spoke last week, you were sharing some really interesting stories, some family stories. And I wanted to give you an opportunity, if you wanted to do here today, to just kind of share some of your family knowledge that you've gathered over the years.

GIROD: Okay. Well, I will tell you the one about my great grandma. Hang on a second. But when I was looking up information about her, 00:30:00 she started out, her name was Foster, Nancy Foster, and this land that--I thought it was an acre, but it's a half-acre, where her cemetery is, but she had a hundred and eighty acres there. But then she married a Mr. Jesse, which is where my grandmother came from. And then, she married a Fisher.

DELLINGER: Now, this is on my mother's side?

GIROD: This is my mother's side. This is my mother's grandmother. And then, she had married a Francis. So, this is her fourth husband. And then, this John--I never have understood, but I didn't know whether he was a Heber or Harper, because the Heber, H-E-B-E-R: was in parenthesis, but it's Harper, too. But he came when he was a teenager, and she raised him. We're not sure exactly where he came from or anything, 00:31:00 but he was an orphan. So, he stayed with my great-grandmother, and I guess, when he got old enough, they married. So, that was her fifth husband. And they were together until they both passed away. But I thought that was really interesting. And they had a camp house there in Artussee, so did my Grandma Jesse. She had a camp house there. And back then, the kids had to help serve. So, the men ate first, kids in the back, then the women ate. But we had to serve drinks and all that stuff. My grandma's house was here, and my great-grandma's house was facing the other way, like this. But we'd run back and forth to try to help them. (laughter)

DELLINGER: Now, I want to ask you this first. Do you have any idea what the age difference was in that marriage?

GIROD: Let's see. 00:32:00 Hang on, let's see if I can find it. Yeah, because I thought, "My goodness." I have a picture, too, hang on. Okay, see, that is Grandma, Great Grandma, and that's Mr. Harper.

DELLINGER: From that picture, I can't really tell the age difference.

GIROD: Let's see. Well, he was born in '85 and she was born in '76, so it's only nine years. That wasn't that bad.

DELLINGER: Yeah, no. So, he was an orphan, but he must have been older.

GIROD: Yeah, he was in his teens.

DELLINGER: That's interesting. And so, you're 00:33:00 talking about being at your campground and at the church. So, would you all go there and spend the entire weekend?

GIROD: Well, Grandma had beds in her camp house, so we'd sleep in those beds. So, we would stay. You'd go on Saturday and you'd cook and they had things on Saturday evening, and then, Sunday. Remember, the old churches, if you had six preachers, every one of them was invited to preach. So, you may be there till late that night. (laughs)

DELLINGER: And Mrs. Girod, where exactly is that? Now, is that church still active today?

GIROD: Artussee? Yes. I'll try to find--you might be able to see--

DELLINGER: Where in the Nation is that located?

GIROD: It is when you're 00:34:00 going to Eufaula, if you go out--okay, I've got to get myself turned around. If you go west out of Eufaula, on Highway nine, number nine, and you go, and it says, "Deer Chapel," you turn and go back south, and then the road kind of ends. It goes to a gravel road, where you turn to the right. If you turn to the right, you'll get to the church on the left-hand side. Or if you just turn to the left completely, you'll to our cemetery. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Okay. And then, you have family in that cemetery?

GIROD: Yes, I do. We have Grandma Nancy; her sister is there. I think I've got a picture. I was thinking at these things thinking, "Neat, 00:35:00 Mom." She's got so many different books when I was pulling information trying to look and see what they were. Oh, that's where it was. Anyway, there's my great grandma, her sister, in Heber, John's there, and then, my Grandma Scott, Grandpa Scott. Grandpa Scott still has his little house on his. And then, there is--it seems like it's my Aunt Lizzie, Uncle Luke, I'm just trying to remember who all was on there.

DELLINGER: And these folks are all Scotts, from that side?

GIROD: Yeah. But the McIntosh's are in there, too, because they're married to the Scotts. My mom was an 00:36:00 identical twin, Lizzy; Elizabeth was her name. We called her Lizzie. And they married brothers. So, Lizzie and him had four boys, and she lost a little girl. Mom had four girls and had a boy. So, we're double cousins. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Wow. See, these things are so interesting. Okay, I'm just sitting here thinking for a second because this is so interesting to me. On the McIntosh side, you said the brothers were Siah, who was your dad, and who was the other?

GIROD: Luke.

DELLINGER: Luke. Okay.

GIROD: He was a preacher for New Arbor, down there, New Arbor Church outside of Eufaula. Because they used to have the church Big Arbor, way out in the country, and then, it split and he started New Arbor in town. 00:37:00 And then you had West Eufaula. I can't remember all the different churches, but I stayed with my great aunts and every Sunday you went to a different church and then the next month you started back over again. But I don't know whether you can see this or not, but this shows--some of the houses that was the cemetery?

DELLINGER: Yes, I can see that.

GIROD: And then, this one here shows them. But for a long time, my Grandma Scott, you can peek through, because the wood was like this, so you could peek through, she had a fur coat laying over the top of her grave. And every time we went down there, we'd peek and see if it's still there. And it stayed there for a long time. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Yeah, and you were sharing with me the other day that, I think, did you say that once the house is gone that it's not supposed to be rebuilt?

GIROD: Right. 00:38:00

DELLINGER: That's part of the Muscogee tradition?

GIROD: Once it decays away, you don't do anything to it. But someone left the gate open, and so the cows got in and messed up my grandfather, so we had to fix the roof on it. But _________(??) good on it. I found that paper I was looking for. There are eleven people on the front side of the cemetery. And then, I have my sister's husband, then my dad--no, my mom, my dad, and then, my husband, Russ, on the second row.

DELLINGER: And what's the name of the cemetery again?

GIROD: Scott Cemetery.

DELLINGER: It's Scott Cemetery. Now, do you know if that cemetery, has that been recorded with the Muscogee Nation, with the preservation department?

GIROD: I don't know. Because I know 00:39:00 there was a lawyer that wanted that property. And so, he finagled around and got somebody that wasn't even blood related to sign off on the paperwork. I don't know how he did it. BIA did not help. But Mom and them, they were all poor and they pulled the money together. But they couldn't raise enough to beat him. But Mr. King, Jolena is his wife, but I can't remember his first name, but they won the bid, but they got the mineral rights and everything. My mom and them got nothing. And then, we had to take him to court twice. Jolena wouldn't let us in the gate. She'd lock it up, even though we had a right-of- way into the property. But the new people that are there are really, really nice. And they even help mow the property, thank goodness, because we can't get down there all the time. But they have a road that goes in, and then goes across the top of the hill over to it, so they go cross country. But 00:40:00 when my dad passed away, it was really rainy. So, we had to _________(??) I think it's called Four Corners, down the road and around, and then, my husband's cousin, they had tractors and they had these wagon things to put on the back. So, that's how we took him in.

DELLINGER: That's nice.

GIROD: Because you couldn't drive. We had to park out there on the road.

DELLINGER: Yeah, that you were able to figure out a way to do that for your dad.

GIROD: I think he would have enjoyed that. But my sister and law, my brother's wife, she did not like it at all. She was upset with us. But there wasn't a way to get in, so they just put trailers on there, just put on the chairs, took us up there and get back, take the next group, and take us up there. But as I said, I think my father would have really liked that.

DELLINGER: Yeah, that's really nice. So, I tell you what, I think that you and I are going to need to have another conversation, maybe even do another interview with all this family history that you have. 00:41:00 I find it very interesting, and this is important knowledge.

GIROD: Yeah and I've got pictures too. I remember you were talking about William McIntosh?

DELLINGER: Yes.

GIROD: There he is.

DELLINGER: Yes, William F.

GIROD: And then, then this is Chilly. And then, this is John.

DELLINGER: Yes.

GIROD: I still have pictures over there of my Grandma Scott and her last husband, and there's one I don't know, it's five people in there, and you can't read what it says on the back. It's taken at Eufaula, but it doesn't say who they are or anything, but they're in those bevel frames and I thought, I don't know how to take care of those. 00:42:00 (laughs)

DELLINGER: Yeah, those pictures, I have an old picture like that. It doesn't even have the glass on the front of it, but it's one of those that is kind of dome shaped. Yeah, those are really neat to have. I tell you what, I hate to cut off this conversation that we're having about your family history, and we will get back to this maybe another time, but so, I feel like I want to get us moving here with the rest of our interview because there are some other things I'd like to ask you about yourself. You had mentioned to me that you spent some time in Scotland, living in Scotland. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to just talk about that a little bit.

GIROD: Well, my former husband was in the Navy. And so, he was based at Edzell Base. And we would have been in St. Cyrus. We had tried 00:43:00 to get pregnant in the States. Nothing. And so, everybody that went to Scotland got pregnant. So, we said, "Don't drink the water." (laughs) My son, I got pregnant with my son, and over there, they have maternity homes. They don't have hospitals for babies unless the baby has a problem, they would take them to Dundee, that was the closest town to the Carlton Maternity Home. But it was like a big house with trees and stuff around it, and they brought you a cup of tea in the morning, and then, they'd bring the baby to you, and since my mom wasn't there, they had to tell you how to take care of yourself, how to clean yourself and take care of the baby. And then, they'd take the baby back. And they took you downstairs and showed you how to give you babies baths and everything, how to hold of them so they were secure. And then, lunch, you would get up and go to the dining hall, and dinner, you'd go.

But for breakfast, 00:44:00 you're fed in bed. The babies, you stayed there seven to ten days, and you'd hear the babies cry at night a little bit, and then they'd stop. But by the time you left that maternity home--oh, and they gave you exercises to do while you're in bed, and then they'd take you down and give you other exercises, so you're learning different things the whole time you're there. And the fathers had to sit downstairs, and when the bell rang, they could come up and see you with the baby. And then, when the bell rang, they had to leave. If they didn't leave when that bell rang the first time, it got louder, and you better leave then. (laughs) But they just had midwives. But Dr. Piercy was my bloke doctor, Scottish doctor, and he came and checked me, and checked Jerry, my son, and he was in a tuxedo. I said, "Oh my gosh, did I bring you away from a party?" because he was born December 17. He said, "No, I dress for all my babies." I thought, how neat! He and his wife both were doctors, and that's who I went to when I was in 00:45:00 Scotland, to the bloke doctors. They call them blokes. But then I got pregnant with Maria. And the doctor says, "Oh, surely you're not pregnant." I said, "I think I am." So, they ran the tests. He ran himself, he said, "Yes, you are. Do you want to keep it?" I said, "Of course." I said, "I tried and tried and couldn't get pregnant the first time, so yes." And that's all I had, just the two. But sometimes when you ask God for certain things, that's what you get. Because I always said I want a son, and then I want a daughter. I didn't say anything else about more than two, so that's all I got. (laughs)

DELLINGER: So, overall, your time in Scotland, was that a pleasant experience? Did you enjoy your time there? You had young children, obviously, while you were there, but was that a pleasant experience for you?

GIROD: Oh, well, I was by myself a lot, because my former husband was at the base. And so, I'd walk to the shops. 00:46:00 Every day, you had to walk to the shops because you didn't have things like what we have over here. We got a refrigerator from the base when we moved to our third house but we started with a white house up on Edzell-Graves Estate, and we went down to the Gatehouse, and then we moved in town, so I didn't have to walk so far. But I was walking. We went and got me a dog so I wouldn't be by myself. And oh, I loved that dog. I would have brought him home if I could. But he was expensive. So, we'd go to the shops every day. And over there, even if you're going to ride a bus or anything, their buses run on time, not like over here. And if you rode the train to go anywhere, if that whistle blew, you missed it. You're supposed to already be on that train. So, everything was just very punctual. So, I'd take Jerry into town. And we had a taxi that we would call. Arthur was his name, and he was really a nice person. But when you're there, they show you how to count your money out, 00:47:00 because it's all strange. I just handed it out to him and then they'd tell me what it was and how much I should get and everything. And I finally got to where I could count out my money and everything.

But when you go into shops, they just leave the pram and the baby outside the shop, and they'd go in. If they had a dog, the dog went in with them, but I didn't, I took my baby. I had a big basket, like this wide, about this tall. Because you'd have to buy, you'd have two pounds of flour, sugar, or your potatoes, and stuff like that, so I tried not to get all of that at one time, because it's heavy. But we had a bakery. And the hot dog buns were ridge rows, and instead of using mayonnaise, they used butter, and they then had cucumbers on the top, so there was a place for cucumbers. But the food was really good. And I was invited to different ones' houses, because I got to meet the people in the village, so I got to go to tea 00:48:00 to their house. And one of the couples took me on a tour with them, and of course, at a certain time, you stopped and have tea. No matter where you're at, you stop and have tea. But they were so, so nice to me. But then, I met a friend, and she was up in the castle, itself. So, I'd walk up to see her, or she'll walk down to see me, and we both had little ones. And then we went to Aberdeen, or different places, to sightsee.

DELLINGER: It sounds like an amazing experience.

GIROD: It is. The people were really nice. But when I came back, because I picked up their slang, and I'd talk really fast like they did, because at first, they'd talk real fast, slow down, slow down, slow down. So, when I got back, and I'd be talking away, and everybody would be, "What?" I was like, "Oh." (laughs) So, I'd have to think again, "Okay, don't say it like that."

DELLINGER: Right. Well, good, good. 00:49:00 00:49:00 I want to shift gears here a little bit. I want to ask you; I know that you do engage in Muscogee community activities and I know that you are a member at the Tulsa Creek Indian Community. I just wanted you to talk a little bit about that.

GIROD: Okay. Well, we've been close for a long time and everybody keeps saying, "When are we going to open?" So, we finally are going to have our first meeting, officially, this month. We had a limited last month, but this month we can have it open. And we're going to have our first Bingo, July the second. But I know everybody's been wanting to get out and get busy and see everybody again. So, yay. But just not being able to see people, it's been really rough. And I'm a hugger. So, some people don't 00:50:00 like to be hugged, so you don't hug them. That's okay. (laughs)

DELLINGER: How long have you been a member there?

GIROD: Oh, goodness. I was trying to remember how long. Maybe eight years, maybe? I don't really know.

DELLINGER: And do you have any certain responsibilities there at the community center?

GIROD: Well, right now, I'm the treasurer. So, I have to keep the books and write checks and everything and try to keep everything straight. But I'm still learning so much because I tell them, by the time my time is up maybe I'll know everything. Because there's so much to do. But transferring all the information from our previous treasurer to me has taken a lot of time. So, hopefully, I can get everything lined up so that they can have a checklist so 00:51:00 when the next person takes over, it won't take as long and maybe it'd be easier as they come into the office.

DELLINGER: Right. And maybe you'll serve a second term.

GIROD: No. (laughter)

DELLINGER: I'm sure that does consume a lot of your time. I mean, are you working on that every day?

GIROD: Just about. And then, when we have like, we had that tree ceremony. We were up there cleaning the yard and getting plants in and going and shopping and getting plants, and it took a lot of time and a lot of people to help. But it's always the same ones. And most of us are senior citizens that were doing this. Roxanne came with her daughter a couple times and helped us, and my granddaughter came a couple times with this, and then Regina did get out a couple times with us, but mainly, it's just seniors. 00:52:00 We just need some young people.

DELLINGER: Right. Well, we're going to talk a little bit more about the community center here in a little bit. I want to ask you one last question about your personal life. So, when you're not working your business, and you're not working for the community center, what do you like to do, just in your spare time, your free time?

GIROD: I like to be out in the yard. I love my gardening. But right now, it needs a lot of help. (laughs) I haven't had time to get out there. But I did get out, my son made me pallet couches, so I got out there the other day, I've gone out in three days, painting, so I've got them painted. I've got to get me some new cushions, and I've got my curtains ready to go on the gazebo, and I've got to get another light, because I broke another light. I've got to get those 00:53:00 hung up so I won't keep breaking my lights. But those lights that hang up in the air, so that when we're out there at night, it's not so dark. I love doing that. And I told him, I said, because of everything that's going on--because I've been helping my cousin, too, but I finally am not having to help her, now. I said, "I'm going to have to fire my maid if she doesn't get busy and clean this house." (laughter) Because I'm just coming and going and so, it's just cluttered. I can't stand it. But I thought, "Okay, I'm going to eventually get to it."

DELLINGER: All right. Okay, Mrs. Girod, we're going to transition the interview here. And I'd like to start asking you some questions about your experiences with the COVID-19 pandemic. And, of course, at this point, we are over one year into the COVID-19 pandemic. 00:54:00 But do you remember where you were when you first heard about Coronavirus, and how did you first hear about it?

GIROD: Well, we were here. Everything closed down in March, but March is also when Russ was diagnosed with cancer. So, it happened about the same time. And so, we had to be quarantined anyway because of his situation. We thought his cancer was just stage two till he did the scan, and then he was stage four. But my granddaughter, Miss Autumn, she always comes, and she's with us a lot. And then, my son and daughter-in-law. That's the only ones that were coming for a while, but then, after my husband started chemo treatments, he went down really fast. So, I had his mother come over and sit and visit with him, and Miss Autumn and I would 00:55:00 take her dog and we'd go walk, just to get away, then we'd come back. Because, you know, you couldn't do much of anything. You had to stay away from everybody. And when anybody came, I had to go through cleaning the knobs, spraying, disinfecting everything, to make sure he didn't get sick. We had fixed the shelter--well, it was a building to put shelters in in the back, and I had asked him, "Do you need to wear gloves?" Because he'd already had his first chemo treatment. "Well, no, I don't think so." Well, something punctured his thumb. It was his thumb. And then, it swelled, and then he got septic, immediately, so we had to put him in the hospital. So, he was in the hospital almost two weeks. They had to do surgery on his thumb. And whenever he came out, I had to start taking care of him by doing the antibiotics and everything through his port. But because of everything that was going on with him, we couldn't be around people. 00:56:00 And that's hard for me, because I'm used to being around people all the time, and I hug people all the time.

DELLINGER: Were you there at home, maybe watching the news or something, is that how you and Russ first learned about the pandemic?

GIROD: Yeah. Yes. And they said that people need to wear their mask all the time, and so, different ones were bringing me masks they had made, because I wasn't leaving the house. So, I had different ones, they'd just drop by and say, "Here's some masks to wear." And so, then we started getting our own, buying masks and everything. But just keeping our hands clean, and keeping everything, cleaning the house for him. With him going down so quickly, it was kind of hard. But he was in the hospital four times in two months.

DELLINGER: When 00:57:00 you did first find out about the virus, what were your initial thoughts about it though? Because it started in another country, and then, it came to the East and West Coast. Did you think that it would eventually make its way to Oklahoma and Muscogee Nation? What were your thoughts about that?

GIROD: Well, since it was kind of going rampant all over the place I figured it was going to hit every place because of people traveling, because they hadn't stopped the traveling at that time. People were still flying here and there and everything. But there was no vaccinations at that time to do it, so we just had to stay home. I'd go out and sometimes get us something to eat, drive through, but then you still had to make sure everything was clean because you didn't want to bring anything in. But I was just shocked so many people died 00:58:00 from that. I didn't know it was that serious of a virus until they're dropping like flies. I thought, "My gosh, what's going on?"

DELLINGER: Do you remember what some of your initial conversations were that you had with family and friends?

GIROD: Well, my daughter-in-law works for St. John's. She's an IT person. And she was telling me that as soon as they could come out with a vaccination, she would have to go ahead and be vaccinated because she's with that group. They started working from home, too, and they didn't go into the office. But off their office building was sold so they had to go home to their houses, anyway, which made it nice so that she didn't have to go out and about. But our son, he still had to go to work at the railroad. But he didn't see very many people because he's in a tower, so he saw maybe one or two people that he worked with up there. And most of them were down on the ground. And I didn't see any of my sisters. And even church 00:59:00 closed down. We couldn't go to church. And then, when they finally did open the church, we had to take temperatures, we had to wear our mask, we had to clean our hands all the time, and we had to check the children in on the computers. We couldn't let anybody touch the computers or touch the little machine that spits out their little tickets saying who it was. But sometimes, I still would get some little ones that wanted a hug. I couldn't turn them down. I had to hug them. But now that it's not--it took a while, but we finally got to the point where we didn't have to do--we took their temperatures, but they got to check themselves in, and we just had to keep wiping down the computers. And then, it finally got to the point, I guess because everybody was getting their shots, and make sure they had their shots before they come, if you're sick, please do not come in. And so, we quit taking temperatures, too, so we'd greet them. And now my little kids are hugging me again. (laughs)

DELLINGER: 01:00:00 That's nice. That's nice. So, I know that you have a very close-knit family. When this thing first started, and the state and local government were locking things down, they were telling people to shelter-in-place, the Muscogee Nation even closed down, how did you guys stay in communication with one another? How did you check on each other?

GIROD: Telephone. Cell phones. That's the way, we'd just call each other. And then, I have a sister, she talks your ear off when you talk to her, though. (laughs) They don't talk as much. We visited and made sure everybody is okay and everything.

DELLINGER: And I wanted to ask you, too, about what your safety measures were. You already mentioned some of them. Can you just talk about that again a little bit? Safety measures for when you're there at the house, 01:01:00 and also, when you left the house.

GIROD: Well, whenever we would leave the house, because Russ had to go over for bloodwork and everything, so it was about once a week. So, when we'd come home, we'd try to get his clothes and throw them in the washing machine, and my clothes, too, so whatever is coming in, we'd get rid of it right there when we came through the kitchen, and have the robes and stuff, and put him back into bed and clean his hands, and make sure everything's clean. And he always had a mask. But even going to the doctor's office, you had to have your mask on and clean your hands, temperature, and all that. But it was hard because they wouldn't let you go in with them. So, I threw a fit the first time because we're supposed to find out what was going on and what they're going to do.

So, I told them, I says, "Well, if they're not even going to let me come in, because he's not going to remember what you guys said. So, I will find another doctor." So, they took me back in there after they got through talking to 01:02:00 him, and they talked to me. And they said, "You could have done a phone call." I said, "Nobody told us that. If they would have told us that we could have called and you would have talked to the phone while I was out there," because other women were having the same problems. I said, "You should tell us because we don't know, because this all happened so suddenly." I said, "You should tell us that we can do phone calls so we can listen in to what you're saying to our husbands and everything." But after that, whenever I'd drop him off, he'd go in and get his bloodwork, come back, and get in the car, wash his hands again, we'd sit in the car until we talked to the doctor to see whether we could go home or whether he needed to come in or go to the hospital or whatever. But, I mean, the medical field just doesn't tell you enough.

DELLINGER: Yeah. So, what I'd like for you to do now is just share a little bit about your knowledge and understanding of COVID-19. 01:03:00 Like, for example, where it came from, how it's spread, what it's done to people physically, the people who have come down with the virus, what some of those experiences have been, just your own personal understanding about COVID-19.

GIROD: Well, I heard it came from China. And someone had mentioned that it was because they're not a real clean country, is what they basically said. But whenever the people were having the virus, I guess it hit their immune system so badly that a lot of them, if you heard they went on to oxygen, then they probably weren't going to make it because they were too sick. We didn't have any--well, I take that back. No family members that we had had COVID, but friends 01:04:00 did. And it was really rough. Because you'd be talking to them, and the next day, you'd hear they'd passed away. So, I was like, "My gosh, I can't believe that happened." But it was just so hard to hear of everybody being so, so sick. And then even the ones that did survive COVID, they said they were so tired they just can't seem to bounce back. They've had a lot of problems. And I heard that if any of the children had it, they came up with even different problems. It wasn't even like the COVID, it affected their body differently. And so, they may not have died of COVID, but whatever it did to their body, it killed them that way. So, it was a terrible disease. It still is, 01:05:00 because I know it's still out there. And then, it mutated, even with the shots we've had, we don't know for sure whether it's going to help later on, if it comes back up.

DELLINGER: Yes. And I know, Mrs. Girod, we talked about this prior to this interview, and I know that you had your husband's illness, and he did pass away during COVID. But of course, it was because of cancer. And I wanted to give you an opportunity, if you wanted to, to just share a little bit more about what that experience was like for you having a spouse who was so ill during the COVID pandemic.

GIROD: Well, we couldn't go out. And then, every time he went into the hospital, they would not let me go in. They says it's for my safety, but the last time he went in, 01:06:00 he had pneumonia. I said, "Well, if I get a hazard suit, may I come in? I'll just bring my suitcase, just stay," because he was in intensive care, anyway. They said, "No." So, I would call, and they'd take the phone, and I'd talk to him, but he was in a medically induced coma because he was fighting the tube that was in his throat. They called me on a Saturday and said I need to come up there. So, I called my brother-in-law and said, "It doesn't look good," and of course, I was boohooing. I said, "You might want to get your mom, bring her up." Well, I got up there, and they did come, and they let her in. They let my brother-in-law in, my sister-in-law, and our two kids. And I could never understand, it's just me, why couldn't I go in? Instead, six people went in and I couldn't be with my husband. And they said, "Well, everybody needs to leave because we're going to remove his tube." 01:07:00 I said, "I'm not leaving." I said, "I've waited this whole week to come in and see my husband. I'm not leaving." I stayed in there with him. And they took the tube out. And he grasped for air, and I was standing over him looking straight into his eyes, and we stared at each other for a while, and then, his head dropped, and he looked back up again. He did that like three times, and then, he was gone. He didn't last five minutes. But it was so hard.

DELLINGER: Yes. And so many families have had to go through this, and it's been horrible, and I'm so sorry that you had to go through this. And then, also again, if you are able here today, I know that you had a close friend, a lady who was a part of the Tulsa Creek Indian Community, 01:08:00 who also passed away and she did pass away from COVID. I didn't know if you would want to maybe share a little bit about her.

GIROD: Well, she was always ready to help and everything. And when I heard she had COVID, I was shocked because they tried to keep away from everybody, too. But I had talked to her the night before, and she had told me that she was just tired. She said that she felt fine, but she was just tired. But then, the next day, I found out she had passed away. And I've talked to her husband since then, and he said that he would check on her, and she'd be sleeping. And he said, "One time I checked on her and she was snoring," so he said--they had to take their grandson or grandchild to school, so he did that, came back to check on her again, but she had told him that if she was sleeping really good, don't wake her up 01:09:00 before ten o'clock. So, he left her. but after that, he went back in to check on her again, and she wasn't breathing. So, he said he called the hospital and they told him what to do and everything, but he said that she'd already gone.

DELLINGER: And what was her name?

GIROD: Linda. Linda Collins. And she was always in charge of our bingo, doing everything. She loved to get out there and shop for the bingo. And we always had so much fun playing bingo.

DELLINGER: Okay. So, I know that this last weekend there was a remembrance ceremony at the Tulsa Creek Indian Community, and I'd like for you to share a little bit about that.

GIROD: Well, your mom, Linda, is the one that started it, came up with the idea. And even though she couldn't come, most of time, she had to be home with her hubby, at least she got it started, and we kind of ran with it. 01:10:00 But getting the program together and everything, we had our former Chief Floyd come and be our MC, and then we had different pastors. We have three pastors lined up, but one of them passed away before we got to the ceremony.

DELLINGER: Oh, gosh.

GIROD: I know. And so, we had to take his name off and revamp. But the tree will grow really tall. And it's a--what is it called? Do you remember what it's called, the tree?

DELLINGER: I know it's an oak tree, but I don't know the specific species of oak.

GIROD: Me, either. Not right now. But anyway, it's supposed to grow really tall. And we put flowers around the base of it, and flags for right now, and we do have a plaque, but we're thinking maybe at the headstones, sometimes they have headstones that lean back like this. We're thinking maybe if we could find one of those, we could have a plaque put on it, cause it will 01:11:00 stay out there. And eventually, we're going to have a sidewalk go out there. It's not going to be like a sidewalk-sidewalk, I think what it is, is kind of like crushed granite, or something. Russ had told me about that, before, it's a lot cheaper and it pounds down. It'll be like cement. But that way, if someone has a wheelchair or anything, they can get out there that way. And we're eventually going to have little benches and stuff. As it grows, we want to add stuff to it. But it was just an honor. We had five members pass away from COVID. And different ones got up and talked about the different people. But Linda was talked about a bunch.

DELLINGER: And I'll go ahead and say that I was at that event. I thought it was beautiful. It was so nice and to be a part of that. And yeah, those folks will be remembered. So, yes. 01:12:00 Do you have any thoughts about what has been the toll of illness and death in the Muscogee Nation as a whole? Is that any information that you've heard through the grapevine or from anyone at the Nation?

GIROD: I don't know any numbers but I know that every time they had a funeral, it seems like they had three or four more, because people had gone to the funerals, and then, being too close, I guess. When you go to a funeral, you're close. You're not spread all out and everything. And I guess that's how they were spreading it, because some people didn't even know they were sick, and they'd pass it around, and then, somebody else would get sick. But they were saying that the funerals, because the way our funerals are, a lot more people were getting sick and dying. But I don't know how many, but I know there 01:13:00 was a bunch. We only had five from our area that we know but down south, they had so many more than we did.

DELLINGER: How do you think the Muscogee Nation leadership has performed throughout the pandemic?

GIROD: Well, closing our communities, I guess, that kept us from getting so close together and everything, and limiting how many could be in the building, that way it prevents us from spreading, if we were sick, spreading disease. As I said, sometimes they don't know they're sick because some people may not run a temperature, or like me, my temperature is never high. If I'm up to a normal temperature, then I'm running a fever because mine is low. But just trying to keep your distance from everybody, staying away 01:14:00 six feet, and they did bring us a machine up there. And they'd tell you to wear your mask, too, if you didn't have it on. But we had to wear our mask and take our temperature. Then, at first, we did it with a little gun thing, but now, we have one up there where it checks you in and put your hand up there and it takes your temperature.

DELLINGER: So, the Nation provided that piece of equipment to the community center?

GIROD: Yeah. And then, they also provided a filter, it runs and it filters out the air. But they also had a machine where they can--when we have people in there, Micah would go through and spray to disinfect it. They tried to, I guess, make sure everybody was safe and kept giving us different things, and gave us even masks to pass out for people that didn't have masks. They came in, they had to have a mask on. Hand sanitizer. We have hand sanitizer. I'm 01:15:00 thinking what else they might have sent. But I mean, it seemed like they were trying to take care of the people.

DELLINGER: Yeah. I know, too, that they did some food giveaways and one of the sites was the Tulsa Creek Indian Community. Did you participate in any of those food giveaways, those events?

GIROD: I went picked up some for my daughter. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Oh, okay. But not as a volunteer?

GIROD: Oh, no. I didn't get to volunteer. But Paula and some of them, they volunteered. There was boo coos of people there. I didn't realize. And we'd get there early because my sister said, "You've got to get there early, or you're going to be way down there." But, I mean, the lines were so long, going on Union, going both directions. And then, at the stop sign, south of the community, 01:16:00 going back towards the school, which blocked the school buses from getting in and out. Whoever was in charge, I guess, of figuring out how to maneuver people in and out of the place apparently didn't think about the schools, or even across the street, there was a handicapped child, the bus couldn't even get to that child's house because of the lines. The food giveaway was nice, but the traffic was terrible. It blocked a lot of places that didn't need to be blocked, especially the school and the daycare down the street.

DELLINGER: Right, so the logistics of the process wasn't very well thought out. But at the same time, it's my understanding that a lot of people were provided with food, and that there was even 01:17:00 food left over, is that correct?

GIROD: Yes, which made it really nice because I know some of the people, they didn't have--I guess they had lost their jobs because of the pandemic, they had to be at home, which really helped them. So, it was nice that they did that. But they didn't think it through for the traffic. I guess they didn't think that they would have so many people there at one time, because when you're going all the way down to 61st and traffic's backed all the way that way, and it's back all the other directions, trying to get through is not that wide, so they finally had to figure out how to get them in and get them out the other way. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Right, right. Wow. Okay, I want to ask you, too, how do you think 01:18:00 the Muscogee Nation Health Department has performed throughout the pandemic, including testing, when they started testing last year, their care for our citizens, and then the vaccination process, how do you think they've done?

GIROD: Well, I'm not sure how they did the testing because I wasn't really involved with that. One of the trips Russ went to the hospital, they gave him blood and platelets and they tested him, and he was positive, they said, so they moved him into the big hospital. And then, they tested him again and he was negative. But Miss Autumn and I went ahead, and they were having the testing over there at the fairground, you could just call, because I called the clinic, nobody ever called me back.

So, I told her, "Well, let's just go over there. If they have an opening, we can get in," there wasn't anybody, we just got right in and got our testing done. But when it came time for the shots, that was another one. My cousin was with me, and I called, and I 01:19:00 told them I was trying to find out about the shots, and no answer. So, a week later, they did call me, but we went on over there anyway and I said, "Well, we don't have an appointment, and I tried calling, so I'm seeing whether we can get in." And they said, "Yeah," because there weren't very many people then, either. So, we got right in. But the next time, we had the appointment already, so all we had to do is drive through. And the lines looked long, but the way they had you inside, they have different lanes that you go through and we even didn't get the paperwork finished before we got into the building, because it went so fast. But you get in there and they give you a shot, they move you on, and you stayed there fifteen minutes, they had somebody going up and down the cars to make sure you're okay. They said if you feel strange or something happens, honk your horn. And so, they did a wonderful job doing that. So, it's just that we couldn't get any call backs from the clinic. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Right. Was that at the River Spirit, where you got your shots? 01:20:00

GIROD: No, we got ours over here at the fairground, inside the--well, I call it IP, River Spirit building.

DELLINGER: And that was a Muscogee Nation vaccination event?

GIROD: Yeah.

DELLINGER: Okay. Okay.

GIROD: They kept advertising and everything. But when we went through there wasn't very many people in there. But I mean, they give you a shot like that, no problems, didn't hurt. And I was supposed to be at a trade show when I had my last shot. I thought, "Oh dear," because everybody kept saying the second shot, that's when you get sick, or you don't feel good. So, I said, "Well, I'm going to be in trade show, so what do I need to do?" And they said, "In about four hours, take Tylenol and you should be okay." So, I did. I did not have any problem whatsoever with my shots, either one of them, even at the trade show. I didn't get sore, I didn't feel bad, nothing. I was so glad because I thought, "Oh, I've got to be in this show for three days. I don't want to be sick." 01:21:00 (laughs)

DELLINGER: Yeah, that's fantastic that you didn't have any side effects. Because so many people have. But some people have not, so I'm happy for you that you were one of those.

GIROD: I know. My arm was a little bit sore, but a lot of them said their arm hurt really bad. Mine was just a little bit, if you bump it, it would hurt just like a regular shot. But no, nothing. I was like, "Thank you, thank you." (laughs)

DELLINGER: So, I'm just curious. How did the vaccine change life for you?

GIROD: Well, it meant I could be able to participate more in my church, because I've been vaccinated. And I wore my mask because we were still wearing masks, too, even though we'd been vaccinated. But we still have some people that have not been vaccinated, so we asked them to at least wear their masks. And at the community center, we're wearing our masks except when 01:22:00 we're sitting there talking, we take it off because you can't understand yourself very well, it's kind of muffled. But when we're in our meetings, we go ahead and take our masks off, because all of us have had our shots. We always ask, "Did you get your shot? Have you had your second one?" We're making sure we all are taking care of.

DELLINGER: Are you talking about at church, or at the community center, or both?

GIROD: The community center. At church, too, same way. Everybody was getting their shots, too.

DELLINGER: Yeah, so it's given you some peace of mind to start getting out there and engaging with normal life, again.

GIROD: And even in the restaurants, they had plexiglass in between the seats, so you're kind of boxed in. And usually, the waiters and waitresses have masks on.

DELLINGER: Yeah, as you've already said earlier in the interview, at this point, here in June of 2021, 01:23:00 the pandemic is still not--I mean, it's not gone.

GIROD: It's still here. It's just not as bad, let's put it that way. Or, not as many people are getting it.

DELLINGER: Yes, thanks to the vaccinations. So, that's good. How do you think that the State of Oklahoma and the federal government have handled--like going back to last year if you think about, especially the beginning of the pandemic, how do you think the State of Oklahoma and the federal government handled the pandemic?

GIROD: Well, the only thing they did here in Tulsa was to tell you to not be out and about so much and be sure and wear your mask when you did go out. But I know the mayor of Tulsa, he told everybody be sure and wear their masks. I know some people didn't like it because they wanted to do whatever they wanted to do, it's their body, 01:24:00 blah, blah, blah. But if you have somebody sneezing or coughing in the store, I go the other direction. Now, I have allergies, but you see them--I don't know whether you saw, years ago, they had this show it was on an airplane, it showed a guy sneeze. Well, when you sneeze, all this junk goes all over. It doesn't stay in one little area. So, all these people were getting sick on the plane. So, I thought, "Well." And some people, it says on the door, "Wear your mask. To enter, you have to wear your mask." Well, they took it literally. To enter, wear it, but then they take them off on the inside. I thought, "Why are you not wearing your mask? It said right there on the door." And then, if you're coughing and sneezing, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." I thought, "Maybe I should keep Lysol with me." (laughter) Because even with your shots, I think you can 01:25:00 still get sick. Maybe you won't get sick as bad, but you can still get it, or you can be a carrier. And I sure don't want that.

DELLINGER: Yeah, I mean like any vaccine, it's not one hundred percent. You're not one hundred percent protected. So, what about Broken Arrow, though? I know Broken Arrow, the mayor there, didn't they kind of, I'm going to say, drag their feet a little bit with shutting things down and putting a mask mandate in order?

GIROD: Well, we wore them anyway, because we were going by Tulsa, so we'd wear them. And then, even in the shops and everything, the shopkeepers started putting about the mask, "Wear your mask," but our mayor, they didn't.

DELLINGER: Right, okay. Well, I'll tell you what. I think we're going to wrap things up here. 01:26:00 I've got one more question that I want to ask you. And I want you to think about our future generations of Muscogee who might find themselves in this exact situation that we've been in, trying to deal with a global health and economic event such as this Coronavirus, and the COVID-19 pandemic. And I'd like for you to share any words of wisdom, or any tips that you might have, about how to live and survive through such a catastrophic event.

GIROD: Well, make sure you always have food in your pantries and meat in your freezer so if you don't have to go out, you can stay home. Because when it first starts, you might be able to get away and get 01:27:00 into the stores and everything, but then, of course everybody buys it up in bulk, and then there's nothing left, and you can't find anything. It was so strange, no toilet paper, no paper towels, my gosh. Because Russ was sick, we weren't getting out, so different ones were bringing me toilet paper because there was none when I'd go to the store. But always make sure you have a good stock of everything. Make sure that when you do go out and about, don't be near people. If they're sneezing, go the other way or coughing, go the other way, because they've been trying to get people to cough into their arm, but even coughing into your arm, if somebody touches your arm, it's still on your arm. I usually take my shirt and go like this, sneeze down into my shirt, then I have to always take a shower. (laughs) But they just have to learn to do cleanliness and make sure that they take care of themselves, not just go out and see people, 01:28:00 because they've had different, like polio, a long time ago. That was one of the things that was going rampant. And then, they had scarlet fever.

But different things come up. They just have to take care of themselves and try to eat proper and try to keep clean, and try to stay away from sick people, or people that's coughing and sneezing. It may be allergies, it may not. But hopefully they'll learn from things that we've gone through. And if they offer vaccinations, try to get them quickly. Maybe that'll help stop it quicker. Because I know everybody's dragging their feet, they didn't really want to do it. And then they finally got out. The vaccinations were available everywhere. All you had to do is go to one of the places and it was open. I know Creek 01:29:00 Nation really had lots and lots of places for people to go to get their shot. Did they do it? I don't know. But it was available to them. It didn't cost them anything, even non-Creeks can go. But I've heard some people say, "Well, they died from that. That's why I'm not going to get one done." Well, it wasn't the shot. (laughs)

DELLINGER: Right. All right, well, listen, again, I so appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this with me and to be a part of this project. Your thoughts and your words are very important and greatly appreciated. And so, mvto, thank you, and you continue to take care.

GIROD: My mother says enkv. (laughter)

DELLINGER: Thank 01:30:00 you, Mrs. Girod

GIROD: Thank you. Bye.

END OF INTERVIEW

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